Encouraging More Folks to the Fediverse?

[Roberta]

Happened upon this a few days ago and always feel a little bit frustrated when there’s an article about breaking up with big tech and the Fediverse only seems to get a tiny mention, if it gets a mention at all. I know @stefan has been working on some things to help explain what it is and how to join (I certainly could’ve done with something like that when I joined Mastodon in 2019 and promptly abandoned my account until 2022 before also using PeerTube and other fedi things), but what do folks think is the biggest obstacle now? Aside from some of the moderation discussions I’ve seen where we can generally agree there’s still a lot of room for improvement on the microblog side, I feel like sometimes people make the Fediverse sound more intimidating than it actually is when they explain how it works and also the feed can look confusing if you can’t find your interests easily and maybe you don’t know how to create columns and lists for the tags you do follow (I feel like it’d be good to create resources that show people how to keep their feed interesting and more manageable perhaps?). Or do most folks actually prefer some sort of algorithm to help sift through loads of posts?

By the way, the comments section is open on that Guardian article if anyone wants to add their cents or pence.

[Roberta]

Also, how did I not notice that Sigur Ros are on the Fediverse??

[Mel]

I really think most people don’t make decisions like this because of feature comparison, UI, etc. I think it’s basically 100% network effect for most people.

So the mainstream has chosen Bluesky, I guess, because of the way they rolled out (get all the celebrities on there first )

After the fact, they can say “I didn’t like the vibe on Mastodon” or whatever — which is fair enough if there’s no one on there you know. And it takes a bit of effort to find new people.

I still think ActivityPub is the better protocol, because it’s cheaper to run (more accessible for us povvos). And more importantly: the community I’ve found on Fedi is incredible.

But after closing my Bluesky account due to predictable corpo fascism, I’m now on the waitlist for https://northskysocial.com/ . Not sure how it will work yet, but the existence of BlackSky is encouraging!

I’d also be more comfortable bridging if it’s possible to defederate the fash like any other server…

[strypey]

This is a question that really intrigues me too. If someone set up a fediverse UX working group that explored how to make the network more accessible to newbies, improve onboarding, etc, I’d totally join. Just don’t have the spoons to initiate and drive it myself for the foreseeable.

My intuition though is that it’s a slow and steady wins the race situation, and that the best way to grow the network is at the edges. People who are already convinced of its long term value setting up local servers, shepherding their family/ friends/ community groups/ hobby circles/ activist networks into them, and providing hands-on guidance and support. What the toot.wales folks have done with Twt is a great example.

Hopefully also collecting nuggets of info about the pain points and feeding them back to developers. Since newbies are the most likely to notice the missing stairs, the ones the rest of us are so used to that we step over them without even noticing they’re there.

@Mel

I’d also be more comfortable bridging if it’s possible to defederate the fash like any other server…

This A New Social blog post about blocking features on BridgyFed might be helpful info for this.

[Roberta]

I had a page on my site a while back which was meant to act as an intro to the microblog part of the Fediverse for anyone that was interested but I still think it suffered from the “assuming that people already know what this means” aspect with some of the tags, etc. The link now points to What is a Fair Music Platform? – NHAM but I feel like it’d be great if there was a single page that gave a very straightforward startup guide. Like this but music-specific: The Future Is Federated: My Fediverse Starter Guide

[NGC-224]

A lot of people I know went to Bluesky, because “everyone is there”.

Then I often hear arguments like: “I can find other people faster on Bluesky” or “They’re not on my instance and I don’t like this”.

But also I have to admit that my wife for example had issues with Mastodon. She was on an instance for a special interest in medical stuff.
At some point the admins hadn’t anymore the will and money to continue supporting this instance and eventually shut it down. Before that a lot of the instance users already moved over to Bluesky when it was opened for everyone. Somehow they thought they’re found a “Twitter 2.0” or so.
After all my wife haven’t really found a good alternative to her former Mastodon instance and left it completely in favour of Bluesky.

So I don’t think that the UI or protocols are the obstacle but how the product is “sold” and Bluesky attracted a lot of people. But I really don’t know.
I’m using Bluesky and Mastodon equally beside some Discord communities.

[strypey]

Thanks for describing your wife’s experience @NGC-224 , this is something fediverse devs need to see more of.

@NGC-224

I don’t think that the UI or protocols are the obstacle but how the product is “sold”

I’m not sure it’s either. I suspect it has more to do with how well the most well known fediverse apps serve people’s needs right now. Tim Chambers wrote an excellent post on the 7 Deadly UX Sin of the Fediverse Web Experience, and then a follow-up post on potential fixes. The problems your wife had to contend with are covered in these, and many more.

I say well known, because some fediverse apps solve problems that others don’t. For example, apps from the Zot/Nomad branch family - Huzbilla, Streams and Forte - all have accounts (“channels”) that can be multiplexed across 1 or more backup servers (“nomadic identity”), so they can survive the originating server going down. Cool feature, in theory.

But I’ve tested apps from this family a few times over the years, and even I find the interfaces confusing (I test bleeding edge software for fun, and I’ve been teaching myself how to use computer interfaces with no manual for about 4 decades). The UX of actually setting up “nomadic identity” for a “channel” is mindboggling. None of this has improved much over time, presumably because the itches the unpaid devs want to scratch are all in the back-end.

@NGC-224

Somehow they thought they’re found a “Twitter 2.0” or so.

I think that’s exactly what they’ve found, as Christine Webber (ActivityPub spec editor and founder of Spritely) says in her excellent analysis of ATProto as a protocol, and BS as a platform Will it go the same way as Titter did? Maybe. Or maybe the fediverse, ATmosphere and Nostr-verse will eventually merge into one network, using a future version of (or replacement for) ActivityPub. Just like what happened with the OStatus, Diaspora and DFRN/ Zot networks, to form the fediverse as it is today.

Either way, it’s hard to fault people for sticking with the apps they find to be best at getting out of their way, and enabling them to do what they go there for, and ditching the rest.

[stefan]

Thank you for the mention, @Roberta !

I agree with @Mel that this is mostly about the network effect at this point. The early adopters didn’t have a great first experience with the fediverse. And even though many of the issues have been addressed, in terms of user experience, even the userbase has mellowed a bit, I feel like it’s going to be hard to shake off the reputation of an unfun, nerdy ghost town where you get scolded for even the most minor transgressions.

It is definitely interesting to see all the progress Blacksky/Northsky/Eurosky have been making, and it does give me some hope that maybe Atmosphere can move away from relying so much on Bluesky. Still, I continue to be a big fediverse fan, and I hope things will continue to improve, and that by the time Bluesky inevitably enshittifies, it will be in a better place to handle a new wave of signups.

I feel like it’d be good to create resources that show people how to keep their feed interesting and more manageable perhaps?

Have you by any chance seen Fediverse invitation | Stefan Bohacek?

[Roberta]

Thanks! I did see this and I might have a go at creating a starter pack (or maybe it’d be better if there was a NHAM one), because I think it’d be cool if there was one that featured Indie Beat’s accounts, NHAM, Jam, Bandwagon, Mirlo, Faircamp, plus radio folks like LABR and DJ Darren, amongst others.

It’d be really good too if there was like a very small “tips” box though underneath, with some bulllet points just explaining about following hashtags more and creating feeds for those hashtags, plus maybe how to block bad instances, etc. They’re things I didn’t understand either at first.

[stefan]

Yeah, the Fedidevs starter packs are a bit limited. I made a music-themed one myself, but it won’t let me add accounts on certain platforms, like the NHAM blog.

The upcoming Mastodon starter packs likely won’t have this limitation, and I plan to support those in my project as well.

[Roberta]

Ah yes, @AxWax mentioned those!

[kidlightbulbs]

Just here to chime in as a newbie and recent convert to the fediverse.

I definitely share the experience that my first time wasn’t great; not only was nobody there who I knew, but the conversations were…. serious. It was hard to know where I could jump into a discussion until I had a real reason to (in my case, share an idea for an app that resonated with a specific community). I agree with @strypey ‘s point that there’s an issue with how fediverse is “sold”, that is how the average person connects it with the role social media plays in their lives.

A lot of people are not using social media in the way that seems to lend itself well to the fediverse. Most people use social media for mindless entertainment (and this is easily transformed into rage on the major platforms), which Mastodon feels distinctly not. It’s a place for real public discourse and I don’t think the majority of people are even actively looking for that.

I have cautious optimism though, because while most people might not find their way here, I do feel like it’s a slow burn that just takes time. Shifting to the fediverse (to me) feels like something that one cannot force. People need an explicit reason to reevaluate the role of social media in their lives and explore other options, and then have a reason to engage here. There might be a point where the size of the fediverse hits a critical mass and network effects take off, but I don’t expect that to be an obvious single moment.

[Roberta]

Oh yes. I’d forgotten just how serious the Fediverse felt at the start! Like walking into a fancy restaurant in a clown costume.

[strypey]

@stefan

the userbase has mellowed a bit, I feel like it’s going to be hard to shake off the reputation of an unfun, nerdy ghost town where you get scolded for even the most minor transgressions.

To be fair, one of the dynamics in the early months of Eternal November was that the newbies were all scolding each other, and then blaming the fediverse for it ; } Or being very calmly asked to content warning their food posts, or whatever, and being so traumatised by what had happened at Titter that they read requesting as screaming.

@Roberta

I’d forgotten just how serious the Fediverse felt at the start! Like walking into a fancy restaurant in a clown costume

OK guilty as charged Those of us doing fulltime unpaid helpdesk in the early months of Eternal November were probably the bulk of the people you encountered at first, because we were actively hunting out and engaging with newbies. We were probably taking it all very seriously, because most of us had seen all the ways big influxes could go wrong, but also how it could work out really well, for both newbies and veterans. We wanted more of the latter this time.

The Titter crisis of 2022 was about the third we’d seen from that platform, plus we’d had other such scandals driving people in from FarceBook (Cambridge Analytica scandal), Tumblr (porn band scandal) and other platforms. Each one ultimately diversified and enriched the culture of the fediverse, but not without growing pains.

@kidlightbulbs

People need an explicit reason to reevaluate the role of social media in their lives and explore other options, and then have a reason to engage here.

Preach! To a certain extent it is a case of “if you build it, they will come”. As mentioned above, all the big growth spikes of the verse have come as a consequence of people being pissed off with a particular bit of enshittification of their favourite platform, and looking for someone to go so they can vote with their feet.

[stefan]

@strypey

newbies were all scolding each other, and then blaming the fediverse for it

I have serious doubts that that was a thing, sorry. Care to elaborate?

@strypey

being very calmly asked to content warning their food posts, or whatever

If a moderator of your own server reaches out to you about a clearly defined server rule you’re breaking, that is understandable.

Dozens of strangers from servers you’ve never heard of trying to enforce unwritten, sometimes conflicting rules, speaking past each other because nobody can see their replies (this was before Mastodon started loading missing replies automatically), that’s just not something a complete newcomer would want to deal with.

People have different expectations around content warning, and some make sense, of course, but some are more arbitrary and people’s opinions differ.

I mean, I actually know someone with a globophobia, but I never see people CW-ing images of balloons. Should I be “calmly asking” people to do that? Do you CW images that can trigger any of the many phobias?

And talking about racism in the fediverse is a whole another topic.

I’ve been lurking on Bluesky a bit, and from what I can tell, yes, fediverse, Mastodon in particular still has some UX issues to work out, but I have seen people also complain about Bluesky’s lack of an edit button, no option for private accounts, lackluster translation features.

But the thing that really seems to make a difference is people talking about how they were treated, the condescending attitudes and smugness, and hostility, and how that’s enough to put many of them off from trying the fediverse ever again.

[strypey]

@stefan

I have serious doubts that that was a thing, sorry. Care to elaborate?

I was there. I saw it happen, a lot. YMMV Probably not so much in the first month or so, but after we got to the point where the first, smaller round of newbies had settled in, and started trying to helpdesk too. While still communicating as if they were on Titter, solving every minor disagreement by getting out their flamethrowers.

But it’s all a matter of perspective. I’ve been using the fediverse on and off since about 2012, when Identi.ca was still running StatusNet. Anyone who’s only been in the fediverse since Mastodon came into existence is a newbie to me, not a “veteran”

@stefan

Do you CW images that can trigger any of the many phobias?

I think you’re confusing 2 quite different things here. 1) Whether or not being calmly asked to do something is really “scolding” which is the point, and 2) the particular example I used, which you seem to have got a bit hung up on.

FWIW I agree that the CW obsession is mostly silly. I hardly ever CW anything. If people don’t like that, they can feel free not to follow my account, etc. But if someone politely asks me to CW a particular kind of thing, whether or not I decide to comply, I’m not going to have a whinge about someone “scolding” me. That also seems quite silly. The pattern here seems to be a lot of people being silly, making mountains out of molehills on all sides.

@stefan

And talking about racism in the fediverse is a whole another topic.

I’m aware of these (highly US-centric) opinions. I’m not convinced they’re always made in good faith, and I think there are far more productive conversations to be had about how to show solidarity across racial lines in online networks. That’s also just an opinion.

@stefan

people talking about how they were treated, the condescending attitudes and smugness, and hostility, and how that’s enough to put many of them off from trying the fediverse ever again.

That’s a real shame. But this is the internet. This stuff is standard, because humans. They haven’t encountered it in BS yet, but they will. Difference is, because of dumb luck it didn’t happen to be their initial experience, so they’ll rationalise it away instead of blaming it on BS or the ATmosphere. The same way those who had happy initial fediverse experiences (or make decisions on what to use based on the tech itself) rationalise away the bad behaviour there when we come across it.

People are mostly not rational or consistent - I’m including myself, of course (I studied a bit of pysch at uni up to 2nd year, so I know a bit about this). Once BS starts to enshittify (and it will, just like Titter with its “open API” before it), many of those who vow and declare they’ll never use the fediverse again will be back. Either rationalising changing their minds, or rewriting history so they never said they wouldn’t. Humans gon’ human

[stefan]

@strypey I don’t want to drag this conversation out too much, so let me address just a few of the more important points here.

many of those who vow and declare they’ll never use the fediverse again will be back

Not sure how closely you’ve been paying attention to this, but there is a real momentum building around the Atmosphere. Blacksky is now running a fully independent ATProto stack. Eurosky has announced plans to follow along. Northsky has been making progress as well.

I think it’s very possible that by the time Bluesky does enshittify, and we all know that’s coming, there might just be enough alternatives for people to move to.

They haven’t encountered it in BS yet

Oh they have. When Rudy, of Blacksky, announced essentially “local-only post”, there was a big, let’s say “racially-tinged” backlash.

But unlike in the fediverse, where Black people get gaslighted, he received a ton of support.

And there is a ton of mansplaining, people get scoldy there as well, miss obvious jokes. I think the difference is that 1) Bluesky is more diverse, and 2) you can always lock your replies to mutuals only, or turn them off completely.

Anyway. Sorry to go off like this. It’s just really frustrating to see fediverse possibly turning into a huge missed opportunity.

Still. Trying to be optimistic, and doing my part to make it more inviting, and give people tools to help spread the word.